route_29 | Route 29: Stay or Leave?

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Route 29: Stay or Leave?

As I am sure you are all aware of, Livejournal has undergone a good handful of changes that have made roleplaying here just a little more difficult. With how the staff of Livejournal and the ones in charge of the code have responded and interacted with the members, it looks as though these changes will be permanent.

Therefore, we have been considering moving our game to another site altogether. This is a poll for all of the current players of Route 29, as we are leaving the decision to a majority vote. Please only vote with one journal per player, be it character or personal.

We request that everyone vote in this poll so that your opinions are heard. If you choose not to vote, then we will assume that your decision is to follow whichever decision is reached at the end.

Now, our choices:
- Move to Dreamwidth.org
- Move to Insanejournal.com
- Move to Scribbld.com
- Move elsewhere? (Suggest location in comments)
- Remain on Livejournal.com

[Poll #1806041]

This Poll will remain open until January 16, 2012 at 11:59 pm.

Please type your answer into the box above. Answers are hidden from the players so no one is pressured to go along with any majority vote and can make the decision for themselves. The poll's window is open for a long point so those on holiday hiatuses will also have a chance to vote. Also, don't feel as though you have to rush your vote! You can take some time and check out the other sites before making a final decision.

Because some of these sites are probably new and unfamiliar to some of you, we've compiled a list of pros and cons for each site so you may make a wiser decision.

Dreamwidth.org
Pros:
- Friendly staff (so far)
- The "prettier" site of the other choices
- Capable of importing old entries, comments, icons, profile data, and more.
- Very easy to navigate
- Longer usernames, post word-count, and comment word-count
- No advertisements
- Uploading multiple icons at once

Cons:
- Layouts are different (though there is a code to adjust flexible squares)
- Table coding doesn't always transfer over well
- Invite codes necessary to create accounts (however, the staff does give a permanent code for games so this can be worked around)
- Comment responses don't go to your 'inbox', only email, for notifications.

More differences between Livejournal and Dreamwidth can be found Here.

Insanejournal.com
Pros:
- 100 icons with a basic account
- Adapts to table coding very well

Cons:
- Basic format isn't very sightly
- Layout coding is a challenge at times
- No default tab titles (pages read like "2367.html" instead of "01 [video]")
- Considered offensive to some with usage of 'patients' and 'asylum'
- Notification difficulties (hit or miss)
- (nearly) no ongoing maintenance/quiet staff
- Can't edit comments

Scribbld.com
Pros:
- Like a smaller, younger livejournal (very similar to LJ)
- 50 icons with a basic/free account

Cons:
- Difficult to navigate (many parts not on the navigation bar)
- the least familiar (everything will be a learning experience for us all)

Another Pros and Cons list; thank you, Kiwi!

Livejournal.com
Pros:
- Everything is already here
- Most familiar

Cons:
- Layouts would wither be simpler or comment pages
- No subject lines would mean for necessary changes in uniform format
- Staff disagreements and future updates which may compromise comfortable RP longterm

Despite the mod team's personal feelings on the matter, we will accommodate with the majority vote. Also, if there are other Journal-esque sites which we just haven't heard of yet but you think may be a decent place for us to play, please let us know in the comments and we'll see how those fare with our playerbase as well.

If the tallying votes all point to us moving and adjusting to a new site, we'll make the necessary notions to assist anyone who is willing to make the change with us. We may not all be able to move in one large wave, but we don't want to leave anyone behind, so we're willing to move anyone who is willing to move with us.

ETA: Dreamwidth is also allowing anyone to make accounts without a code until the end of December, in case one would like to snag an account now. Insanejournal and Scribbld don't require codes, so accounts can be made at any time, but dreamwidth is a bit time-sensitive at the moment.

Thanks, everyone! And we hope everyone's having a great holiday season. Let's keep our spirits up for a wicked 2012!

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I admit I am reluctant to move. If the game does move I will move and if it stays I'll stay. But I am reluctant.

This is a partly monetary reason. My Roxas journal has a paid and well, I'd like to feel I got $35 worth out of it before having to leave.

I'm also concerned about how the move would go. This is a journal based game after all so it'd be a lot different than moving a comm based game. Especially if people have changed usernames, etc. It would take a lot of organization.

Thirdly, I want to hope that people are considering this move in the frame of mind that this action is the best move for the game. That it is going to help rather than hinder our growth as an RP. I don't know about anyone else but I feel like a lot of haste and pressure is being put on people to make a decision and that we need to move right fricking now so that we can make a statement. That really rubs me the wrong way and I feel that this is a big decision which deserves some thought and a clear head.

I second this sentiment. I also have paid accounts and packages, and have concerns with this being a journal based and not a community based game. While it's easier for most games to move over, Route will take an awful lot of organisation.

I'm also pretty reluctant to move, and feel the same way as you.

I may also be just... really shallow, but even with all the changes that LJ has made, I still prefer looking at it than I do any of the alternatives. I've played games on IJ and Scribbld before, and... maybe it's just me, but it just doesn't have the same feeling. (And, I can't really describe what this feeling is, but I've been told that I'm not the only one who feels this way.)

Not to say that what LJ is doing is necessarily right, just that, I don't feel like it is bad enough to warrant me wanting to make the huge effort to move out.

That said, I'm glad that the mods are giving until Jan 16 to think this over.

At the end of the day, what I really want is for us to do whatever is in the best interest of our players and the game itself. I don't really have an opinion on whether we stay or go.

If the game does move, however, I'll probably drop instead of following. There are a lot of different reasons why, most of them being time constraints and a lack of interest in learning my way around a new site-- I'll be sad if we do move, but like I said, I would rather do what's best for the game, no matter what it is.

I was actually rather reluctant to put the poll up so quickly to be honest with you, because I wanted to avoid any kneejerk reactions that would end up rushing a decision. I'm personally hoping people take time to look into all of the sites before making a set decision.

As for paid accounts, that part really is a blow. My personal journal has some time on it as well and I'm kind of bummed that it's the first thing I let go. Unfortunately, that's one thing none of us could really prevent or fix, although we wish we could. But don't worry, it wouldn't completely go to waste; the move, if that decision is chosen, would probably take another good two or so months to organize and plan, so you'd still get to use some of your money.

And for the move, we're definitely NOT going to rush into it. We would have to work on setting up the communities first, but then moving players and getting new accounts would go in smaller chunks, to keep it organized and to keep from overwhelming dreamwidth's servers. We don't have a set way of moving just yet, since none of us are actually certain that this move is going to happen, but we've begun tossing about ideas on how to go about it and one of our main concerns is making sure not rushing into it.

Offering a contrasting opinion to the one above. While I understand it, I've been looking at it from a different perspective this entire time.

I have paid time as well, but the usability of the site has gone done vastly for me; even our makeshift custom layout gives me headaches.

I'm of firm belief that no customer, paying or otherwise should have to jump through hoops to make a website work the way they need it to. With the planned changes (overall site interface, lack of nested threads, inability to credit icons?), I don't feel as is LJ is moving in a direction that is beneficial to LJRP on the whole. I think a lot of people's reluctance lies on a fear of change (not everyone or ANYONE in particular, just an observation I've made via all the talk EVERYWHERE). All it takes is a good amount of people willing to make the plunge and we could have major beneficial changes for the community.

I don't think the transition would be that difficult; all it takes is commenting on the taken lists with something like "

usedkunai is now

windamp!" (dependent on what server, if any, we move to. DW just has easy linkback coding) -- if the mods are willing to make the effort to change the usernames on the taken list, then it just leaves the rest of us.

Importing entries is incredibly easy, and even if you don't want to -- you can link back to the previous entries on LJ. It doesn't change. The content is still here, even if you choose to play new stuff elsewhere, you know? Once you get past those initial things, everything would likely be pretty smooth -- things work exactly the same otherwise, save for some minor things depending on the site.

It doesn't mean we have to abandon our fandoms or other games that remain on LJ. But I don't feel as if I'm getting my money's worth on LJ with the poor treatment we're getting from the higher ups. And as an additional note, one of DW's admins said he was actually EXCITED to support RP on DW which has been motivating him to finish the community importer. It's refreshing, in my opinion.

I don't feel like a lot of us who want to move are being rash. I've been on LJ since 2002 and I'm honestly fed up with the treatment and would much rather put my money and time into a site that will treat me better as it stands right now.

Of course, I will stay of the game stays, albeit with no paid accounts (I will miss you, icons!), but I would do so only because I love the game and the people in it. I agree that people should think about it hard, especially if they're on the fence, but I fully support a move and I have no qualms about stating it.

Well, if we decide to move in the end, we're going to do our best to make sure the players and everyone can get a good hang of how the chosen site works as well so no one's completely left in the dark. But if you choose not to follow a move, I'll continue to wish you all the best.

Buuuut hopefully we can keep you as long as we do have with you, though. Don't go anywhere on us just yet, Diane!

I'll repeat what I've said on Plurk and in my other main game's poll. My reasons for wanting to move have gone beyond just functionality and aesthetics. I don't know if anyone else in game has had this issue, but there've been users complaining about being billed for paid time when they cancelled their subs. already. I myself also have three charges on my card and no email notification to explain which accounts I'm paying for, and the dates are not adding up (I'm always notified the day the payment is taken, yet I have payments for the 19th and no notifications. Now my bank account has been overdrawn and I've been charged fees. :/). I'm honestly disgusted that a site that has had such loyal customers for so long, especially paying ones, would turn around and do this kind of crap, or let someone on staff get away with it. Not only the immaturity of Ingrick (or whatever his name is), but this business with the payments as well.

I think that's something that should be taken into consideration as well as a general warning for any users with debit, credit, or bank accounts attached to LJ. I'm fairly certain they can't do that through Paypal for various reasons, but I'm for moving because I'd rather minimize what time I spend on a site I can't even trust. I'll have to cancel my card and probably close my account because of this mess (since I have a history with LJ and they have that info).

Especially when I'd prefer to have icon options without juggling a million free accounts.

I'll follow the game. If it stays, I'll stay, if it moves, I'll move.

I'd like to add to the "con" list of livejournal that it is quite literally unusable for some people. Netbooks have trouble loading pages, and some older computers simply won't let the new comments page load at all. I know that my own computer, which is less than a year old, is constantly freezing if I try to use LJ with any other site, including Plurk and Gmail. I also have to refresh several times to get custom comment pages to load all the comments. The workarounds are fine for now, but as seen at SC (http://i.imgur.com/Bj9Vw.png), they do break. That's a big concern because I know there's at least a few people who will want to stay in the game but can't because LJ simply doesn't work. And it's not just comment pages that are going to get altered--they're planning to change the whole site. There have already been countless complaints of headaches from looking at the site scheme, and several occasions of panic attacks due to lacking the subject line in communities.

Along with the lovely "automatic paid" glitch, the glitches that have allowed others to log into random accounts and see private information, the DDoS attacks and the unprofessional attitude of the LJ staff (I particularly love when legit concerns got called "spam"), I think there's some big issues to sticking around LJ.

But I've been on DW for a few days, like a lot of people, checking it out. The staff has flat out said it supports the RP transfers. They've done a lot in making the site more comfortable for people. They've also explained what is likely LiveJournal's reasons for changing the format. They've been nothing but respectful and have done their best to make people feel welcome. The comments page can be changed to something that looks almost exactly like old LJ, too, which I have enabled. It basically works exactly the same as old LJ except for some coding issues. This makes my vote obvious, but it's really not bad over there.

I understand people with paid accounts not wanting to leave because, well, money. I'm typing this with a paid account, and I have one or two more that aren't ending for a while. But at the same time, I think it's important to make sure that the game is accessible first and foremost to its players and potential players. There's big changes in store for LJ, and the promise of accessibility leaving with the old style.

Also, LJ's already lost me more than two months of userpics packages on one account, alone. It's rarely covered the entirety of the DDoS attacks for paid accounts, and combining all of the accounts I've lost time for, I've lost at least a month and a half of paid time, too. It's not the same, but if LJ continues this way, you don't think you're really going to get all the time you're paying for, do you? Or all the benefits? This is my personal preference, but I'd rather cut my losses now and move to a site that will actually give me what I pay for.

LOL AND THEN LJ CRASHED. THANK YOU, LJ for proving my point :|

Pretty much everything said here.

Honestly, I don't mind most of the changes, and the ones that are a little annoying (subject lines) are also pretty easy to think of work-arounds for. I know this doesn't go for everyone, but for me, it means that moving is "pointless."

To be honest, I also don't like… polls going up like this. While on the one hand, I really do appreciate that Route is trying to accomidate and be friendly with everyone, and find the best solution for everyone, I also feel like polls like this add pressure. On every poll I've seen so far (in different games), the majority has always been "I'll do what the game does, stay or go." This might not be true, but it feels like, in that case, it's not about site design or preference—it's about the game. While this is great (hurrah! Liking a game! Liking the community!), I also kind of feel… well… then, are you moving for the right reasons? This isn't as small as "join a new community" or "create a new journal," this is a completely different site, and I think moves should only be made because you want to leave LJ, not just "stay with the game." (I hope that all made sense, and it's just imo/how I've been seeing it!*)

I also feel that a lot of players/characters would be lost in the transition, and it would be harder to get new players to app into the game after a move. These may or may not be pros or cons, depending on your POV, but it's not like Route will be the same after a move, if one happens.

* People with legit issues who legitly want to move for whatever reason, that's absolutely cool with me. I'm speaking specifically of the "I don't mind either way, I'll go with the majority" types. That's also a valid way to think, I just don't think that it's… needed to move, in that case.

TL;DR MY THOUGHTS.

My vote's on DW. I'm not particularly fond of the insanity theme at IJ, even if getting 100 free icons is cool. And it doesn't seem like we can import things?

I'm fed up with the things LJ keeps doing and I would much rather be at a site that cares about its userbase. The staff at DW appears to be very approachable and are quick to respond to inquiries and I'd love to be at a site like that and support them by buying paid time there.

If we end up staying, I'll stick around as long as the muse stays alive but I would definitely prefer to take our fun times elsewhere. It might take some time to get used to it and to reorganize things such as the friend add list, but I think it would be better in the long run.

I personally would much rather a poll go up to have the community of the game have a say in the decision, personally.

I personally would love it if everyone of my games got off LJ and moved to another site [I would love it even more if they all went to the SAME site.] Some of my CR in this game can't even post because of LJ's changes [access or visual issues.] If my games don't get off LJ, in order for me to, I have to drop my games. Much as I enjoy LJRP, the stress of where the RP is is starting to outweigh the enjoyment of the game. However, I am one person. There may be others who just as strongly would love it if everyone stayed. If there are more people who would love the game to stay, then the game should stay. If more people would love the game to move, it should move. Without a poll to get that feedback, there's no way for the mods to know what the player base feels.

There is a tend in all RP communities on LJ right now to look into moving. Who knows, if most decide to go, it may be harder to get new players if we stay. I know there have been a few people I've seen say they aren't apping to any new games on LJ, or at the very least not until this mess is sorted out. And apps and drops are part of any game. You will always lose players as no one stays in an RP forever.

I know facing change and the potential loss of players is always a hard thing to even consider, but sometimes, it needs to be faced. I would much rather it be faced with the will of the community behind it rather than a move decided by just the mods.

Geez hun, you've really had the short end of this shitty stick, haven't you?

Not bad enough to move?

I'm with this game whether it moves or not, but lj has gotten bad enough. The staff is rude and downright obnoxious. I, for one, really do not wish to pay for a service that allows for their staff members to act towards with paying members with disrespect. If I pay for something, I expect good customer service. LJ does not have that. If you wish to, then by all means. Just realize that the discomfort one feels towards moving might be the lesser evil in comparison to paying for this.

I think polls are good, actually. Because it gives people who are generally more silent a chance to speak up, without feeling the overwhelming "what if I have an unpopular opinion and people are upset with me" feeling.

I think that moving simply for the game is still as good a reason as any. Be it because you want to leave LJ, or you just want to stay with the community, I think this game means different things for different people, and any reason for moving -- be it a wanted move or just a move because the game is moving -- is a good reason.

But you already know my thoughts on how I don't want to move.

Not bad enough for me to want to move. I'm not speaking for anyone else, and I'm not saying that anyone else's opinion is not as important as my own.

I feel sort of bad because I'm actually complaining more than I should about LJ. I've had some really good times on the site, and I'll actually be pretty sad to leave. But as it is right now, I'm seeing way more issues with remaining here than benefits. 8(! Also I use I a lot to prevent from generalizing too much, this is just how I see it, and how things have been working for me. I just tend to have the worst luck possible....

I also just found out that I lost entire threads and entire posts to LJ deleting comments from users with deleted accounts. And I miss seeing icon keywords, too. And character names when I hover because spelling in different languages is not my forte.

Yeah, pretty much this. I have already imported a journal or two.

My concern isn't about aesthetics or the like, it's about the principle that guides customer service. I do not want to pay this site anymore if their idea of good customer service is a "deal with it" philosophy.

Everything you've said is exactly how I feel.

Steph's account was also billed extra. As were several other accounts I have in different games.

How do you import accounts? I tried but I think I failed.

It's under your tools options! There's a que for it, so don't worry if it doesn't show up right away. I think I had to wait like an hour or two for everything to show up.

I'd rather not the game move, but, hey, I'm a weenie and don't want to deal with two sites at the same time. But if everyone else wants to move then by God, I'll move, too! Insanejournal seems like the best option (especially with people for paids, so they don't have to pay for more icons), but at the same time, I understand that some people find it offensive and even one person driven away because of that is one too many : (

Dreamwidth, then, is the other option- one that I'm comfortable with, even if the default style is a little ugly. However, unlike the other options, DW allows us to import entries, which is definitely why it's the best choice. Especially for players who have been here since the beginning, since I'm sure that's a lot of posts accumulated.

So, if we do move, DW would be the best option.

Voting DW for all the above reasons listed. In every situation like this in the past, LJ has been willing to at least backpedal once the complaints built up. This time, they've shown no such willingness to do that, and in fact have done everything in their power to make it worse in every way possible. They're clear on the matter that they're going ahead with this decision, and thus far, all signs point to the fact that in the long run, fandom isn't part of their future plans. They'll probably wind up making things so unbearable for any fandomers who stick around that most people will pack up and leave sooner or later.

It's also gone beyond aesthetics and design for me. Aside from the perfectly valid complaints that this layout is hard on the eyes and the browser, and sacrifices functionality for design (and even then, it's kinda sacrificing both at once), the real kicker for me is that LJ's customer service has hit rock bottom at levels I thought even this shitty abuse team was incapable of reaching. I've heard horror stories about the abuse team's awful treatment of customers and users from both friends and from the accounts of other people, but this kind of solidifies it. Between the snide comments of Igrick and the snarking of various other LJ staff on Twitter that we'll "get used to it", I'd rather not have to stay in such a clearly unwelcoming environment for any longer than I have to, and I sure as hell don't want to give them any more money.

It's been steadily getting worse, and it will continue to get worse from here on out, because LJ's not budging on this. I don't think DW is ideal for this, but it's more ideal than IJ or Scribbld, and since the site was formed from a similar situation in the past (namely the Strikethrough incident)... they seem like they're trying to do everything LJ is failing to do. Plus, they're keeping a pretty level head about the whole thing, because some of the DW admins have gone on record trying to explain LJ's actions from an objective and business standpoint.

I don't think migrating to DW will be fun or necessarily easy, but I think it's the best and least stressful option in the long run. If we don't do it now, it's very possible LJ will implement something that will force us to do it later. Might as well do it now, while accounts are free to create without an invite code. And I dunno the progress on it, but I've heard DW is working on a community import feature, which will undoubtedly ease the transition a bit.

Which leaves the only issue to be the aforementioned "I have a paid account on LJ, and I may or may not want to move to DW, but if we do, I can't pay for one on DW too". I heard on Plurk that a few other games are putting together a "paid fund" for the players who are in this situation and had a paid on LJ for their characters -- if we do decide to migrate, why don't we try to do one of these? We could even do a fundraiser or something, since I know we have tons of artistic players here who can draw or write, and might be willing to pitch in for the purpose. (And I'd probably be willing to donate to something like this, myself... hey, belated Christmas present or early birthday present, anyone?)

Okay then, thanks for the tip~

Oh god this so much. I can't even spell in my native language without help, spelling names? HA. I have to open journals in new windows all the time now, just to make sure I'm not screwing up!

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

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Route 29: Stay or Leave?

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